NSG frustration, and better understanding of SNR relationship to FWHM (two things, semi related...)

Following the Fundamentals tutorial...

NSG does not generate the "Photometry" previews consistently, I cannot find any rhyme or reason to elaborate beyond that. It works consistently for the Reference Image, but not others, and frankly only generates the Photometry result occasionally. It detects stars fine. I have repeated this process a half dozen times now from scratch with the same result, trying different subs. (This included restarting PI since I have had a few issues recently where PI glitched and needed restarting...) It feels like a glitchy script, but I am sure it is something I am missing. Do subs need to be registered first maybe? This is not mentioned in the Fundamentals tutorial if so...

The first run through with NSG, (I thought I had it generating Photometry results, but maybe not), it produced several subs that we WAY worse looking than the starting file.

I cannot find the original documentation referenced in the script's header "Prerequisites...", but this could be because of my unfamiliarity with PI documentation. I did do a Google search and still couldn't find it.

And, tangentially related but very important to me understanding whether NSG is worth the time and hassle, I am hoping for a good resource on the relationship between SNR and FWHM/seeing conditions, basically something to explain how the various factors used in weighting, (or culling), images may be related, what causes them, etc...

-Anthony

Comments

  • So I think, (?), I've answered part of my question, which is that , yes, the subs must be star aligned/registered. This is not intuitive in some ways because other weighting occurs before registration. Also, the fact that the script does photometry/platesolving made me think it could sort itself out...

    My second, semi related, question remains. Some direction to resources on the causes, relationships and implications of weighting factors would be much appreciated.

    In part, this question stems from my observation that SNR Weight and FWHM generated by WBPP seem to have an inverse relationship when I am looking at them in Subframe Selector, with the low FWHM subs being obviously much better than the high SNR Weight frames. Maybe this is what is discussed in the NSG tutorial video?
  • edited September 2021
    Darn it. You are right! The Fundamentals version is one I did after Horizons...and then the YouTube version (even shorter). I do think I got better with practice. I added this language to the video page. Thank you for pointing this out. 

    NSG requires registered images. You will note all of the images I load have *_r.xisf which indicates they are registered. At the top of the script, in the second sentence it says it needs registered images and is done immediately before stacking. Finally, you will note that images I blink (to find a reference) are all aligned.

    Here are the answers to your questions about the weighting metrics.

    1. SNR Weight suffers from the same disease as noise evaluation. They use the same estimate of the scale and mess it up under variable sky conditions. So to me...this metric is OUT.
    2. FWHM is not a reliable metric of image quality. Resolution doesn't matter if you can't see the object. A thin cloud can provide stable conditions and good seeing- but poor signal. SFS does not have a method of detecting signal strength and noise- SNRWeight is OUT. Some people like to use star number as a metric of  the quality of data. But this fails with undersampled data...especially with hot pixels.
    3. NSG is the only tool in PI that measures the flux of stars straight up for scaling/weights. You can't do better than this. This Flux plus PI's estimation of noise (not scale) works well. So NSG is the only true weighting option I am aware of. If all of your frames are about the same- WEIGHTING DOESN"T MATTER. It only matters when there is variation between frames- that is when you will get a benefit. 

    So, again the inverse relationship you see with SNRWeight and FWHM is not reliable. You can watch my video on Asymmetric Weight methods for SFS in order to compensate- but this is silly stupid and arcane. It is educational in terms of understanding what is going on... but not really practical.

    If you still think I am crazy... please see this plot. This shows the difference between noise evaluation and NSG. If this chart doesn't do it... you cannot be persuaded. 

    -the Blockhead

    P.S. Please see the YouTube video:   (three parts)
     About the plot. I had 75 frames. For EVERY SINGLE frame that NSG measures a lower weight... noise evaluation (and thereby SNRWeight) gives a HIGHER weight. exactly 100% perversely wrong. How about them apples? You can see my recent talk on this plot at the AstroImagingChannel: Just watch from HERE. 
    Capture.JPG
    775 x 951 - 134K
    Capture1.JPG
    1297 x 771 - 76K
  • I find FWHM to be useful to determine whether I should keep shooting, and for culling out frames with wind gusts or cable snags or just passing bad seeing conditions.

    So to re-state that thought, FWHM may not be the best way to weight frames, but it can be useful, I would think, to cull outlier subs or evenings not conducive to long FL/high resolution imaging.

    Is that a sound premise do you think?
  • As for the SNR Weight metric, I am new to all of this, and my first experience, although couched in the semi-subjective comparison to FWHM, (gradients are usually not much of an issue for me in my skies and chosen shooting conditions...), seemed to agree with your statements.

    This is why I am working through your recommendation to use NSG.

    Thanks!
  • Yes, culling bad frames by stellar morphology is certainly valid. 

    -the Blockhead
  • Thanks for the confirmation.

    FYI, I got NSG to work and it produced an exceptional result. 

    Thanks!
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